Storing precise values in rrd

[GOM]

GOM [http://community.zenoss.org/people/GOM] created the discussion

"Storing precise values in rrd"

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I have some stuff to graph which is beter reported as precise, whole value integers. RRD wants to store it as approximate values. I understand this is the nature of RRD, but I also have a lot of disk space and am not worried about having 1 gig rrd files if necessary. I understand that there must be a way to tell RRD to store the exact value and allocate enough space that it should only start to deteriorate or throw away data after the round robin archive fills up (?)

Is this done with the consolidation function? Should it be LAST? Say I'm storing data on a 10 minute basis, and I want the graph to go back 1 year with precise values stored, how do you tell the graph to do this?

In other words:
Loading Image... Loading Image...
*A measure of events per browser*

How to make these report precise whole integers (as the data comes in)?
(There isn't such a thing as 1.66  or 757.34m events -- but 2 or 1 perhaps)
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[dpetzel]

dpetzel [http://community.zenoss.org/people/dpetzel] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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There are two halfs to your question:
1) I want the graph to go back 1 year with exact values stored, how do you tell the graph to do this.
For this you need to alter the default RRA commands. You can do this globally in the collector, or you can override it per data source in a template. http://oss.oetiker.ch/rrdtool/tut/rrdtutorial.en.html http://oss.oetiker.ch/rrdtool/tut/rrdtutorial.en.html (What has been created?) discusses this a bit. Essentially you need to tweak the default create command to meet your needs

2) How to make these report precise values
From the document you posted the key take away is the additions to the default create command (same as above). In this case some NEW RRAs that are not created by default with Zenoss are added The last 4 lines in the rra configuration toward the bottom of the page show the use of "LAST". Once an RRA has been saved with some LAST values you can then update your graph def and use the CFUNC (Consolidation Function) of last instead of AVERAGE of MAX which should result in the actual value being graphed, rather than the "adjusted" value provided by the other consolidation functions
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[GOM]

GOM [http://community.zenoss.org/people/GOM] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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Thanks for taking the time dpetzel.

Unfortunately none of these answers really do it.

http://community.zenoss.org/docs/DOC-4426 http://community.zenoss.org/docs/DOC-4426 is enlightening about rrd but does *not* provide correct info for how to actually graph exact values. In fact it doesn't say anything about how to make rrd graph exact values. That is the title, but no where in the text does it say: do (such) in order to make this happen.

http://community.zenoss.org/docs/DOC-4426 http://community.zenoss.org/thread/11762, which the above article is evidently based upon does not do it.

The answer is not to use LAST as is suggested in the thread and the article. Or am I missing something?

I updated the default rrd create command for the collector, and then deleted all .rrd and restarted Zenoss for:

* The block of rrd create commands mentioned in the above article with my graph datapoints set to AVERAGE
* The block of rrd create commands mentioned in the above article with my graph datapoints set to LAST
* A block which contained just the last the LAST with my graph datapoints set to LAST

Each time the graph just says something like "*curr: 954.52m*".

Most of my datasources are not on step 300. They are on step 600. So I use an RPN of 600,*  With the different step, I also experimented with different RRD create commands, like:

RRA:AVERAGE:0.10:1:600
RRA:AVERAGE:0.10:3:600
RRA:AVERAGE:0.10:12:600
RRA:AVERAGE:0.10:144:600

(providing consolidations for the same time intervals as the default 5 min ones, but for 10 min: [n,30min,2hr,24hr])
No luck. Also tried this with LAST.

I'm fairly certain I've seen this done, with Zenoss even. So seriously, what gives, how do you make a graph show integer values?
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[jmp242]

jmp242 [http://community.zenoss.org/people/jmp242] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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As far as I've ever seen, the answer pretty much is RRD doesn't do exact, non averaged, integer values - at least not reliablily. I've seen it work for a little while here and there, but it doesn't seem to do that sort of graphing to me. Personally, I think this ought to be a bug in RRD and there should be a fix, but the RRD site implies it's a design decision, so unless Zenoss is replacing RRD for graphing (fat chance!) I think we have to live with averaging... :(

--
James Pulver
ZCA Member
LEPP Computer Group
Cornell University
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[GOM]

GOM [http://community.zenoss.org/people/GOM] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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Post by jmp242
As far as I've ever seen, the answer pretty much is RRD doesn't do exact, non averaged, integer values - at least not reliablily. I've seen it work for a little while here and there, but it doesn't seem to do that sort of graphing to me. Personally, I think this ought to be a bug in RRD and there should be a fix, but the RRD site implies it's a design decision, so unless Zenoss is replacing RRD for graphing (fat chance!) I think we have to live with averaging... :(
--
James Pulver
ZCA Member
LEPP Computer Group
Cornell University

James -

If this is in fact the case, can you do us all a favor and update your wiki post titled

h2. GRAPH AN ACTUAL VALUE (NOT AN AVERAGE)

which does seem to try to explain how to do it, so that people don't waste multiple hours of their time trying to figure it out. This thing has been up for ~2 years, I hesitate to think if its victims.

http://community.zenoss.org/docs/DOC-4426 http://community.zenoss.org/docs/DOC-4426
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[stevez]

stevez [http://community.zenoss.org/people/stevez] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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James' document deals with consolidation (the third phase or an RRD input). Normalization (the second phase of an RRD input) is what's screwing you up. Your data is not getting messed up because it is being consolidated to a lower resolution step (current value is messed up). Your data is getting messed up because RRD is always rate based but your data inputs do not occur exactly on the 10 minute steps (10:00, 10:10, 10:20, etc. but rather it could be 10:02, 10:13, 10:21, etc.). RRD then has to cram those polls into the first set of time steps. As a result, it attempts to normalize the step entry based on prior polls.

The averaging in James' document deals with rolling up high granularity steps into lower ones (to preserve space) and how to prevent, delay or change the way that happens. Consolidation and Normalization are two completely different and unrelated phases of updating an RRD.
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[jmp242]

jmp242 [http://community.zenoss.org/people/jmp242] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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I have updated the Wiki post to point to this thread to make some of the RRD stuff clearer, though really, RRD is clear as mud most of the time for me.

--
James Pulver
ZCA Member
LEPP Computer Group
Cornell University
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[stevez]

stevez [http://community.zenoss.org/people/stevez] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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I should add that I assume you are using a GUAGE data type. I too was initially under the impression that this will log whatever it reads exactly as it is. This is true, however it only really applies to rates (speed, temperature, mph, etc.). It does not really work for non-linear gauges (stock price, events in firefox, other things that jump around to discrete values).

Normalization works well for continuous rates such as speed (I have to go through 65mph to get from 64mph to 66mph) and temperature (I have to go through 55C to get from 54C to 56C - bear with me physicists this is generally true). However a stock price can jump from $50 to 80$ without ever hitting $60 or $70. Likewise you could jump (almost instantly) from 1 firefox error to 5 which should show a spike but might show a slope as a result of normalization.
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[GOM]

GOM [http://community.zenoss.org/people/GOM] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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Post by stevez
I should add that I assume you are using a GUAGE data type.

Derive, but what difference does it make. All the same applies.
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[stevez]

stevez [http://community.zenoss.org/people/stevez] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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I would agree that this is an aggrivating limitation from the Zenoss viewpoint - it should be flexible enough to accomodate this. However this is how RRDtool is designed so we can cry bug but they will say it is working as intended. Think about it from the other side though. If your polled value is from 4:07 and you try to cram it in 4:05 you're essentially making up datapoints, misleading your users and lying to your management and customers. RRDtools design decision prevents people from doing this accidentally or intentionally.
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[GOM]

GOM [http://community.zenoss.org/people/GOM] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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Well, it's already "making up" datapoints :p
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[dpetzel]

dpetzel [http://community.zenoss.org/people/dpetzel] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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I've only done it the one time, but I do have a graph that only shows INTs and that document as the basis for how I did it. I have a vague memory of needing to change the *format* on the graph point. I just looked at one of my graphs that does this, and I'm using a format of "%5.0lf%s". No sure if that helps or makes no difference, but I can't think of anything else it might be.
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[kb8u]

kb8u [http://community.zenoss.org/people/kb8u] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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Graph point (text) format %5.0lf%s is correct, see http://oss.oetiker.ch/rrdtool/doc/rrdgraph_graph.en.html http://oss.oetiker.ch/rrdtool/doc/rrdgraph_graph.en.html

However, that will show integers for cur, avg and max (which might not be what you want).

The original post did not discuss what he or she wants in the graph portion.

Getting the graph to show integer values is not possible and is usually not needed for troubleshooting purposes.  If there are more data points to graph in your time range then there are pixel width in the graph, some loss of granularity is inevitable.  Designing your rrd and graph definitions to use MAX or MIN (depending on if you want to show how 'good' or 'bad' something is.

Unfortunately the 'custom graph' feature in zenoss in actually 'append custom graph commands to default' so there's not as much flexibility as there could be.  The same is true for the data source data point custom create command, it really is an append command to default rrd creation.  I modified /opt/zenoss/Products/ZenRRD/RRDUtil.py  to get around this latter... feature.  You can also just (re)create your own rrds with rrdtool create from the shell before zenoss has a chance to.

If you do go the full custom rrd route, be warned that you have to have AVERAGE and MAX consolidation functions or the graphs will fail to draw.
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[stevez]

stevez [http://community.zenoss.org/people/stevez] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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Hi GOM,

I was trying to do a similar thread (0,1 or 2 status on an interface) in this thread:
http://community.zenoss.org/message/61253#61253#61253 http://community.zenoss.org/message/61253#61253

We found that due to RRD normalization (how RRD accounts for data input not being on exactly step intervals) it is very difficult to store exact integer values. The only way to do this is to ensure that your data input to the RRD is exactly at the step time (resulting in a no-op normalization). Zenoss does not provide any facility to do this and thus is 100% impossible to do through Zenoss. It is theoretically possible that a datapoint could line up with the step but it will never stay that way, varying cycle times, reboots, etc. will eventually throw off the data input time from the step interval. Even if Zenoss allowed this to be done on anything but a trivial installation it would be impossible to fully control cycle times.

Here is an overview of how normalization works if you are not familiar with it:
http://www.vandenbogaerdt.nl/rrdtool/process.php http://www.vandenbogaerdt.nl/rrdtool/process.php
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[jcurry]

jcurry [http://community.zenoss.org/people/jcurry] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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Presumably you did find a way to hold your detailed data for 1 year, rather than normalising it after a couple of days??

These are my notes for modifying the consolidation factor for detailed data to hold it for 1 year:

To change the RRA parameters for a Data Point:
1. Explode the Data Source to see the indented Data Point
2. Double-click the Data Point to edit it
3. Enter the following in the Create Command field and then click +SAVE+:
* RRA:AVERAGE:0.5:1:105408
* RRA:AVERAGE:0.5:6:600
* RRA:AVERAGE:0.5:24:600
* RRA:AVERAGE:0.5:288:600
* RRA:MAX:0.5:6:105408
* RRA:MAX:0.5:24:600
* RRA:MAX:0.5:288:600
1. The two changed parameters hold 105408 detailed 5 minute samples ie. Approximately 1 year of detailed data
2. You will need to delete existing data files.  All data files are held in $ZENHOME/perf/Devices/<device name> with subdirectories for components, typically under the +os+ subdirectory.
3. The rrd files for these two Data Points have increased from 35,432 bytes to 1,712,360 bytes.
4.

Cheers,
Jane
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[Shane Scott]

Shane Scott [http://community.zenoss.org/people/hackman238] created the discussion

"Re: Storing precise values in rrd"

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GOM:

As stated elsewhere, this is all a product of normalization. There are good reasons for having normalized data. The data will be normalized regardless of configuration at pdp boundaries. This is essentially the rate. Consolidation is different from the normalization. That said consolidation configuration to limit or defer consolidation will still result in normalized data.

--Shane
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[TitoOrtega]

TitoOrtega [http://community.zenoss.org/people/TitoOrtega] created the discussion

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GOM

Hi! i think you can disable normalization to do what you are trying. there is something at command prompt can be done. it work verry well for instantaneous values if available in zenoss...

let me know if you need help :)
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[Shane Scott]

Shane Scott [http://community.zenoss.org/people/hackman238] created the discussion

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GOM:

Ignore Tito, he is a troll.

--Shane
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[TitoOrtega]

TitoOrtega [http://community.zenoss.org/people/TitoOrtega] created the discussion

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??
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[stevez]

stevez [http://community.zenoss.org/people/stevez] created the discussion

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Tito is...eh...special. He comes up with a nugget of info once in a while but do please validate his suggestions before implementing. A once-in-a-generation mind which is so brilliant it is often misunderstood.
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[GOM]

GOM [http://community.zenoss.org/people/GOM] created the discussion

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Nice.
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[TitoOrtega]

TitoOrtega [http://community.zenoss.org/people/TitoOrtega] created the discussion

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thank you stevez. im sure we can get this to work for gom. Comeon zenoss community. maybe nicky knows or can get simon to help us!
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[Shane Scott]

Shane Scott [http://community.zenoss.org/people/hackman238] created the discussion

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Tito:

Just FYI he was being facetious.


Everyone:

I'm sure it would be possible to code a patch for RRDtool to allow for unnormalized rates.

--Shane
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